dtsv1 | 12 points
What about Brazil and IvermectinNow I have ivermectin myself in case i need it and am hoping it works, but there's something about Brazil that doesn't seem quite right.
Brazil has a very high usage of ivermectin (plus HCQ and some other stuff added sometimes), yet Brazil has the highest daily deathcount of any country right now.
What's up....?
-edit
Also Peru, Ivermectin is widely used, yet daily deaths are 4 times higher since the beginning of this year.
Why is nobody asking these questions? I want this to work, hell, I have pills + injectable in my drawer, but these stats don't look good at all.
[-] TheInterceptor007 | 9 points
Peru had a new government they stop with the program to distribute and give people IVM so that is why it went up may that explains.
In Brasil unfortunately is politicize which means that around 1/2 of population maybe not taking it but the friends I have in Brasil that took IVM they did got better quick some in 48 hours, also we do not if the ppl that are using it take it with food / fatty food if you take with empty stomach 93% will be gone in the feces so not good :-( that is my 2 cents. I have IVM tablets at home and I will take right away if I get the COVID no doubt about that.
I drug that have so many benefits and a safe profile like this you cannot go wrong aas you can see this article below from Nature from 2017 even before the COVID era:
[-] beauldaslove | 6 points
Just take it at the first sign of symptoms. Also get your vitamin d levels up high. I’d suggest taking 5000iu d daily. And c every day. Take 1000mg c every hour for the first 12 hours. I did all of the above and my symptoms all went away 12 hours after onset and I was very sick. I woke up very ill with chills, body aches, low grade fever and took the aforementioned immediately. By 7:00 pm my fever broke and all I had afterwards was the lack of smell.
Extra sales of ivm were some 45 million units last year in brazil.
On surface that's a lot. If it was used on symptom onset and single unit per infected it would cover 20% of the population, and thus significant amount of infections would be covered. With five units per infection this would cover just 4% of population.
However if it has been uses prophylactically, for example once in 2 weeks (12 units for half a year) and the amount would cover just 4 million people or less than 2% of population.
Finally some might be just stockpiled for future usage.
All in all without knowing more details very little can be learnt from this - doesn't prove ivm can not work, doesn't show it works.
Nice piece of important info here. Where does the 45m extra unit sales data come from? (Not that i don't believe you, just would like the reference when this point comes up again). Many of us are curious how IVM works against the P1 variant, that is now even here in Stockholm.
Here's one source https://www.ictq.com.br/varejo-farmaceutico/2471-ivermectina-e-cloroquina-explodem-em-vendas. It doesn't actually contain the whole year's numbers. I can't now find a source for the whole year (maybe I saw it on twitter?). Still, it contains numbers till November 2020 and:
- The sale of ivermectin grew 466% in the accumulated from 2020 to November
- In 2020, the industry sold 42.3 million boxes of ivermectin
So, somewhere around 40-50 million extra boxes for the whole year is close enough.
But again, without knowing how many boxes one symptomatic uses, how much has been hoarded but not used, and how much has been used as prophylaxis it's impossible to say if the number of infections treated with IVM is 2% or close to all.
As for P1 variant there's a nice video Kory made with Chamie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DguMXUpwUkw. See 31:45 forwards where they discuss about Manaus, IVM use and the P1 variant.
Finally it's worth noting Chamie predicted Mexico City, Panama and Lebanon mortality going down based on them starting IVM usage. The drops in deaths in Mexico City and Panama were dramatic. In Lebanon less so, but still clear drop in deaths. See jjchamie on Twitter for more details.
[-] machinelearny | 6 points
I had the same doubts and came to the same conclusions already given below.
In brasil Ivermectin (and HCQ) has been politicized against Bolsonaro (the right) to the same extent or even more so than in the USA vs Trump (the right). The media here is also very strongly left leaning and you will actually read news articles with headlines saying "Ivermectin (or HCQ or both) promoter DIES of covid!" As if that proves anything.
I've read 2 such articles, it is disgusting to see the media use a person's death to try and discredit a beneficial drug for political reasons.
Personally I have told many people I know that they can trust that Ivermectin works. People that know me well all started hoarding it and using prophylactically, whenever they felt exposed or some just every 2 weeks or so.
I've also asked people I don't know, like taxi drivers etc. whether they know about any early treatments etc. probing about ivermectin, and most people I've encountered has basically said it's a load of crap being pushed by Bolsonaro and his supporters. So my conclusion is that early treatment with IVM or HCQ is not as widespread as it should be.
There has also been a lot of places that distribute it or prescribe it on first positive test, and then many people don't take it, because of the media. They will even report on how ridiculous it is that a doctor prescribed it to them. So those doses would go to waste.
Then there are many other problems in Brasil, like the slow testing process resulting in people only getting treated after a long time even if early treatment is prescribed. The other thing is the early prescription of Dexamethasone which seems to be included with all the IVM/HCQ prescriptions, but since the early treatment only starts kinda late, perhaps that's not too bad. But it might be negating the positive effects of IVM in the cases where it was actually used early.
[-] stereomatch | 3 points
Great summary.
Ironically it's Brazil now with sensational results reported for Proxalutamide https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/m2bwgj/chinese_antiandrogen_drug_proxalutamide/
The extension is that study was for 168 females after the 262 males in December, as it is an anti-adrogen.
No one has gone over the data. Hell, 141/294 (47.6%) dead in the placebo? That's either super shitty health care or something fishy.
Yeah it's crazy high. Could be that Brazil hospitals are now overcrowded? See the bbc link elsewhere in this thread. There should be also a FDA trial, anyway: https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/proxalutamide-phase-iii-clinical-trial-for-the-treatment-of-covid-19-patients-approved-by-fda/
Yeah, we can't cherry pick populations when it suits us.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56342303
[-] Skybright77777 | 1 points
Well read the explanations above as to why the idea that everyone there takes iVM is completely wrong. The real crime is the politicisation of treatments. People who foster this have blood on their hands.
[-] machinelearny | 1 points
According to that article, vaccines are still effective against the P1 variant, but natural immunity from previous infection is not.
Can somebody explain how the vaccine is still effective against this variant but natural immunity is not? It seems quite strange to me... but anyways.
[-] archimedesscrew | 1 points
Different immune response. The vaccine may be producing an immune response to a different protein than what a median natural immune response may be producing.
Also there are possibly a lot more antibodies and other immunity components being engaged by the vaccine in comparison to a natural flush of the infection.
[-] machinelearny | 0 points
Or perhaps the authors of the article just wanted to make people think that the vaccine immunity is superior to natural immunity, while there is no evidence of that being the case.
[-] mekikichee | 1 points
Is it country-wide usage? My understanding that it's not Standard of care atm.
Some infor from Brasilian people when IVM medical group was still up on FB.
Hello! Do we have anybody from Brazil in this group? I've heard of difficult situation in state of Amazonia. Supposedly a health minister Eduardo Pazuello visited Manaus and advised local doctors on using Ivermectin and HCQ for treating early patients but later retracted his statements? Anyone from Brazil knows if doctors in Amazonia are prescribing Ivermectin?
Carolina Muniz
here in Brasil opposers to the federal government do anything to prevent him from doing what is right, even kill an entire capital city as Manaus! They stole all the money the president sent and hid oxygen. They Mayer prohibited early treatment with HCQ and Ivm and now people are suffocating at home. We have an excellent big group of doctors United for early treatment and we are trying to change the situation with the help of federal government. Unfortunately the people suffer because of the badly elected local politicians
Carolina Leite M. Castro
some are, some aren't. Some are afraid due to attacks on their reputation. A group of doctors who believe in the early treatment actually went there by request of the leader of the medical union to teach the protocol. The federal government created an app based on the reserach of doctor Flavio Cadegiani with the clinical score to identify symptons (a paper that was peer reviewed) and due to media attack, the app was retracted(the media claimed the app was to prescribe cloroquine) . Manaus is being used politically and it is flooded by corruption. Difficult situation and difficult to know the truth. Carolina Leite M. Castro
Another important thing is that there is a lck of medication there, and very poor infra-structure. the mayor is being prosecuted for stealing a dose of the vaccine. Total mess, totally chaotic situation. The study on the use of hydroxoclorique there is also being investigated (for murder) because they used super high toxic doses to dicredit the drug.
[-] jphr1920 | 11 points | Mar 11 2021 05:59:34
My cousin is a higher up at the Brazilian Albert Einstein Hospital. He just won't prescribe it, locked my aunt up for 12 months now. The Brazilian media is alienating anyone who reviews Ivermectin. Its usage in Brazil is defined across political lines. If Bolsonaro supports it, 40% of the population won't take it just because he mentioned it positively. I know people who got in bad shape but avoided ivermectin out of pride, just so they don't end up doing what "deniers" do (denier is the term to describe someone who questions these experimental vaccines and notices the beneficial risk reward ratio of ivermectin).
My immediate family has been hoarding ivermectin and taking prophylactically.
Also, there is political interest in making Bolsonaro look like a "gramma-killer".
One doctor in one city cried out for ivermectin a few months ago, and he sent a huge batch to her, results in this city are completely different than the bleak picture that the media paints.
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