smorgasmic | 6 points
Do Any Ivermectin Studies Use Daily Doses for Weeks at a Time?Do any of the 35+ positive studies on ivermectin use high doses every day for weeks? Most of the studies I have seen give two or three doses early in the disease process.
Aside from developing the frequency around the half life, the argument here would be that the viral level in tissues (e.g., lung, heart, and intestines) is not well captured by the oral PCR test, which is really measuring viral levels just in the mucosal fluids of the throat. So there could be a hypothesis here that continuing to treat with ivermectin beyond the point the oral PCR test goes negative would have value in lowering tissue concentrations of the virus.
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 3 points
This study had three arms, one of which dosed ivermectin daily for 5 days and found this group had better outcomes.
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712%2820%2932506-6/fulltext
Anecdotally and from a mechanical point of view, daily dosing works better than single doses, even if a high dose is used. Dosing is still an open question, I have heard of loading doses being used too. The FLCCC I-MASK+ protocol recommends:
0.2 mg/kg* per dose — one dose daily, minimum of 2 days, continue daily until recovered (max 5 days)
[-] smorgasmic | 2 points
That's the right idea, but it would be nice to see studies that compare 1 day, 2 day, 5 day, 10 day, and 20 day courses on a wide variety of measures.
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 2 points
That would be a difficult study to conduct. I don't see a study with dosage running to 20 days happening. The longer the dosage protocol the lower the completion will be. What are you hoping to prove?
There is enough data to indicate the effects are dose dependent and best results when given early.
[-] smorgasmic | 2 points
The point is we do not have a good measure of when this virus clears from body organs. No one is going to do liver or lung biopsies, for example. Therefore there might be benefit to lowering the viral load beyond the point that the PCR test goes negative.
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 1 points
The best you will find are animal studies looking at Ivermectin clearance from organs.
In the post-COVID stage, the presence of lingering infection in organs differs from person to person (i.e., no longer present in the nasopharynx but potentially present elsewhere). This is according to Dr Patterson's research; not all long-haulers have lingering infection. Irrespective of this, prolonged inflammatory symptoms are quite common following recovery. Indeed Dr Patterson and Dr Yo report good results giving ivermectin to long-haulers. It may be a sensible general protocol to continue ivermectin treatment on say a weekly dose for a few weeks after recovery.
[-] smorgasmic | 1 points
Setting aside Covid "long-haulers" as yet another special case, what about the people who end up in ICU and either stay for a month or end up dying? What is the ongoing viral load in the tissues of those people? I would not be shocked to learn that their PCR test shows negative results when the tissues are still dealing with active virus. So the hypothesis is that an extended period of ivermectin therapy might have a benefit for that group.
[-] Spallumcheen | 3 points
A question I have (though I am a proponent of ivermectin for prophylaxis for highly exposed persons and of treatment for positive ones) is whether there is deleterious effect on our intestinal microbiome with longer-term, frequent use. I believe a Peruvian microbiologist has suggested this although she considers short term treatment for C19 effective. She suggests possible harm to the immune functions of the intestinal microbiome. I haven’t been able to find any studies except for one in tigers that looked at combined ivermectin and albendazole use. I’d appreciate any comments and references. (Of course the same reservation applies to antibiotics, maybe more so.)
[-] paredes916 | 1 points
I've had this thought as well. I am one that takes probiotics with prebiotics basically on a daily basis , and we know how important a strong microbiome is.
Probably one of those cost/benefit things.
I'd be interested in more info on this as well. I stray away from antibiotics for a reason, I wonder if Ivermectin has such a wiping effect on the microbiome as well.
[-] hanstoppable | 1 points
Somewhat related to your question re intestinal microbiome....check out this company who has created a more solubilized version of ivermectin: https://youtu.be/Pvoe1v1Lr_Y
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
Do any of the 35+ positive studies on ivermectin use high doses every day for weeks? Most of the studies I have seen give two or three doses early in the disease process.
I am not aware of any of those studies using ivermectin for weeks.
Although there are studies using it for 5 days.
And studies using it to resolve taste/smell loss - using high doses of ivermectin + aspirin (although is still not for weeks):
There is a study on taste/smell reversal using Ivermectin/Aspirin - where they dose normally and then for those who do not respond they dose at double doses - and had majority recover in 2 weeks:
https://zenodo.org/record/4065802#.X7yuEh5RU0N
September 26, 2020
COVID-19 Persistent: TREATMENT WITH IVERMECTIN AND ACETYLSALICYLIC ACID OF PATIENTS WITH THE PERSISTENT SYMPTOM OF ANOSMIA OR HYPOSMIA. Gustavo Aguirre Chang
For prophylaxis people have taken it for months without issue - even Dr Pierre Kory mentions this in one of his videos.
Something close to what you are asking has been reported by long haulers who have anecdotal evidence on Twitter etc.
And Dr Bruce Patterson/Dr Yo group with their longhaulers.com - they have said ivermectin benefits dinner long haulers, while other drugs help others.
However not all long haulers see benefit from ivermectin. Some report benefit from Famotidine etc. and other drugs.
And since Ivermectin is seen as helping in prophylaxis, mild, moderate and severe covid19 ie even ICU according to some studies, that expands the range of use to 2-3 weeks. So it is no surprise if there are repeat doses being given over those 2-3 weeks.
Post-recovery it would be no surprise if it is used on a weekly basis to prevent or preempt long hauler syndrome from setting in - perhaps for a few weeks.
However this is still less than the usage you ask about it heavy dosage for months.
I suspect that at some point you will start to see the effects of ivermectin overdose. Which is why researchers will be wary getting too close to that kind of dosing without sufficient excuse to do so.
Aside from developing the frequency around the half life, the argument here would be that the viral level in tissues (e.g., lung, heart, and intestines) is not well captured by the oral PCR test, which is really measuring viral levels just in the mucosal fluids of the throat. So there could be a hypothesis here that continuing to treat with ivermectin beyond the point the oral PCR test goes negative would have value in lowering tissue concentrations of the virus.
Well as I have commented on before, the positive PCR test is strong proof of live virus or viral debris presence (which is why you get positive PCR long after the virus is dead).
The MATH+ protocol outlines data they shows live virus is dead within a few days, and for almost everyone by day 8 from first symptoms. Which is why they can safely prescribe steroids aggressively on day 8.
However there are cases of people - esp immuno-compromised patients who have had live virus reported for much longer.
I don't know if that risk is reduced further if the patient was given ivermectin during the viral day1-8 period, but that is a possibility.
[-] Alpha_pad_385743438 | 1 points
The reason you do t see studies like these is because the half life (time it takes for the body to remove half of a dose from itself after administration) is several days. If it was given to frequently it would bio accumulate, meaning increasing levels in the body over time. Another there dose of any medication is not needed until levels have begun to taper off.
[-] smorgasmic | 1 points
I follow you on half life issues. That would have to be modeled to develop the correct frequency.
[-] Alpha_pad_385743438 | 1 points
We already have extensive data on half life, rates and routs of excretion form the data compiled for this to become a medication to begin with. The only issue is repurposing it, standard off lable prescribing. All the other data is already sufficient for this kind of inquiry as well as safety. Only if it works for a new purpose is on the table in a medically credible context
[-] smorgasmic | 1 points
Right, but one of the safety questions would be how much accumulates if you follow the half life and give the drug for more than five days straight, 10 days, 20 days, etc. I am guessing the half life was studied originally with the idea that one or two doses would be given to fight a parasite.
[-] smorgasmic | 1 points
Correct my math, but assuming a half life of 18 hours for Ivermectin, if you gave dose in amount A through six days, you end up with a steady state accumulation of about 1.996 times A. Since ivermectin has been safety tested at around 10x the standard dose, 1.996 \~= 2x the standard dose is probably not immediately dangerous.
Where I would have concerns is what are the long term effects of taking ivermectin just in terms of its mechanism of action. If it is keeping proteins out of the nucleus - and this includes beneficial proteins like p53 or Nrf2 - that might cause some longer terms health risks.
The current MASK+ protocol say to taker with a fatty meal because it increases the bio-availability. IF in fact it does, I think that would increase the 18hr half life. Iirc the 18hr half life was for the original parasite dose and was taken on an empty stomach to kill the parasite.
[-] Cute_Parfait_2182 | 1 points
How does one get ivermectin for humans in the USA ?
[-] [deleted] | 1 points
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[-] bikes4paul | 4 points | Feb 11 2021 17:39:57
I'm not aware of any trials that dosed for longer than 5 consecutive days. Dr. Been states that he uses daily doses until his patients are fully recovered. He said he doesn't stop at 5 days but usually his patients are recovered by that time. I'm not sure how often he goes longer or how long he's had to treat.
Here is a small study out of Peru by Dr. Gustavo Aguirre Change. He is one of the true pioneers in treating C19 with Ivermectin. This study looked at multiple doses of Ivermectin for Long Haulers with extremely impressive results. The sentence that addresses your question is the following: "If a patient continued to have symptoms after the fourth day of treatment, more doses of Ivermectin were indicated. Treatment then continued for additional days until either clinical improvement was observed, or there was no longer further clinical improvement with treatment." The paper doesn't mention how long they administered the treatment in the most extreme cases. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344318845_POST-ACUTE_OR_PROLONGED_COVID-19_IVERMECTIN_TREATMENT_FOR_PATIENTS_WITH_PERSISTENT_SYMPTOMS_OR_POST-ACUTE
Dr. Aguirre is active on Twitter so you could ask him. I'm sure his experience has evolved significantly since he posted this pre-print.
https://twitter.com/Aguirre1Gustavo
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