wallahmaybee | 9 points
Careful now.Just want to point out that Ivermectin is an essential tool in fighting serious parasitic infections in humans and animals, that blanket use over the entire population might backfire and that worms aren't all bad, always. Also anthelmintic products kill non-target invertebrates.
Prophylaxis for frontline workers who are most at risk, for household or close contacts of infected people, people who have serious pre-existing conditions, great. The rest of us can help by taking other precautions like hand washing, masks and distancing without blanketing the environment with one of the most useful drugs in the world. If widespread parasite resistance develops we will be in deeper trouble than covid19 is causing.
http://www.fao.org/tempref/docrep/fao/010/ag014e/ag014e06.pdf Parasite resistance to anthelmintic drugs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_parasitic_worms_on_the_immune_system
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5682104/ Parasite-Derived Proteins for the Treatment of Allergies and Autoimmune Diseases
I don't want to rain on your parade, I just wish there was a better response from the medical authorities so that whatever useful well-known drug could be repurposed quickly and sensibly during this pandemic instead of people resorting to self-medicating without much thought about unintended consequences.
[-] JosephTheManJohnson | 2 points
While I work in a Hospital, I do not provide direct patient care. Nevertheless in my job I travel throughout the Hospital daily, and into covid care nursing areas. Yet, I personally have chosen NOT to take Ivermectin as prophylaxes, but I do have it on hand and will take it immediately upon development of any symptoms. Where I work we have had covid patients since at least March, and myself and several of my coworkers have been in the building throughout (no working from home), but so far none of us have caught it (or at least came down with any symptoms). Personally I'm not a big fan of taking Ivermectin for prevention, unless perhaps I was doing direct patient care--but to each his own. Each person needs to make their own decisions and do whats right for them. What is most important is that Ivermectin is showing to be a very important drug against covid--and I'm thankful I'm able to have some on hand, if ever needed.
[-] Alexanderandjeff | 2 points
So let me get this straight....3.5 billion doses given to those all around the world has not led to the parasites finding resistance to IVM or the class of similar drugs given out from the early 1980's ....So suddenly these worms immune system will find resistance...If they do Ivermectin could be geneticly re -engineered I would think. .If resistance was a problem parasites would have figured that out by now I would think .
[-] wallahmaybee | 2 points
3.5 billion doses over 40 years is nothing compared to what could be administered with widespread prophylactic use during this pandemic. Livestock parasite resistance was first identified in 1987.
http://www.fao.org/tempref/docrep/fao/010/ag014e/ag014e06.pdf
[-] Alexanderandjeff | 2 points
We are talking about either having it on hand or use prophylacticly once a week...12 to 18mgs once a week is an extremely small dose...Ever measure 15mg ..Take a 1/2 " by 1/2" sliver of tissue papper.. Thats the dose one would take as a bridge to Vaccinating the world...And Ivermectin comes from a class of drugs that all have anti parasitic and potent anti viral properties...Some doctors are calling it a "miracle drug" some are saying it will to viruses as what Penicillin did to bacteria.. Talking about Penicillin....We hand that out and many versions of it to billions of animals to keep them bacteria free and keep them fat and healthy and we do that like there's no tomorrow .The amazing thing .It still works and now only because of almost 80 years of there overuse ,they are becoming resistant... Its like saying to those that were going to die from their war injuries ,lets say when it was first discovered. .Not sure if researchers knew or about drug resistance back them. It was of no concern even if they did . . But lets say they did for argument sake .. Imagine if they denied any one this potential life saving drug because it could cause bacterial resistance and stop working! They would immediately think you need to find another line of work We are talking about at most 6 to 12 months in even countries that are the poorest to save lives where they might not have vaccines available...We are all potentially exposed daily if we are around others and most are forced to do that even with Facemasking and social distancing etc ..One dose once a week could save countless lives until i vaccine come along and watching for those contraindications or just it by a doctor. . Print out the potential side affects for all to see especially those that have Blood brain barrier issues which are few and children under 15 Kgs as well I said this a few times....Imagine if a Pharmaceutical company would find this drug today and could patent it. .At $20 a dose they'd flood the world with it. You'd never hear the end of it .... Remdesivir and Hydrocloroquine on steroids Im sure ..Drugs that could work but Remdesivir is what you hear about that got almost immediate approval...Its laughable to think anyone at this point would feel drug resistance was an obstacle . Compare IVM this to the toxic drugs they push daily including passing out opioids like candy. No mention of the 40,000 deaths it caused....For IVM Only 2 possible deaths have been documented with over 3.5 billion doses in 40 years ...If those companies could patent it they would be in heaven....There only interest is money. Not necessarily saving lives. To make this idea of possible drug resistance to this is in a class of anti parasitic drugs that all appear to be potent anti viral drugs makes no sence when the world is being terrorized by a pandemic. I agree with you about its use in this way .I personally feel the best approach is a cheap in home way of testing and then taking it, or if thats unavailable or unaffordable take 15mgs weekly until vaccine come along .
[-] lovethebigones | 2 points
Valid concern, but I don't think it's as concerning as antibiotic resistance.
There are some reports of resistance with Onchocerca volvulus (river blindness) and reports of cattle nematodes becoming immune to IVM, however 99% of cases of O. volvulus are found specifically in 31 African countries.
Like any antimicrobial, resistance can occur, but this is after intensive treatment with the agent. The first documented case of IVM resistance in scabies occurred in 2004, the patient who developed resistance had received between 30-58 high doses of IVM over 4-4.5 years.
I'm with the rest of the comments on this one, no one is intending to use IVM long term, however I believe the doses used for both prophylaxis and treatment fall far below the threshold of concern. Especially because resistance occurs only if the patient is repeatedly exposed to both the infection and the treating agent and the initial infection remained after treatment. Let's be honest, if you've got scabies, worms or any other parasitic infection for the whole time you're on prophylaxis, you've probably got far bigger problems on your hands!
[-] Murky-Lengthiness | 2 points
Also, messing with parasites can lead to something like the situation portrayed in the documentary “Trench 11”.
[-] wallahmaybee | 1 points
I'd never heard of it. Sounds good, I'll watch it next horror movie night :)
[-] Murky-Lengthiness | 1 points
Very well made!
[-] SwiftJustice88 | 1 points
So you’d say no prophylaxis for healthy/younger individuals? It makes sense I’m just in a bit of bind where I live with a high risk individual. My fear has always been infecting her even though I don’t go out beyond what is necessary. Because I’m younger and healthy I’d likely only take Ivermectin once infected if I lived alone...
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 7 points
So you’d say no prophylaxis for healthy/younger individuals?
To slow the growth of resistance to ivermectin among some species of worm? LOL. IMO you shouldn't concern yourself with the worms, Swift.
If you live in the tropical countries where onchocerciasis (river blindness) and filariasis (elephantiasis) are endemic, then you definitely want to take ivermectin to fight those parasites. Don't be concerned about drug resistance: even if you refused to take it for that reason, the Mass Drug Administrations are going to give ivermectin to more than half-a-billion other people.
If you do NOT live where parasitic worms are endemic, then its extremely unlikely that you have them and you cannot contribute to drug resistance.
If you do have worms -- don't you want to get rid of them? Massive yuck factor for me, anyway.
IMO prophylaxis for healthy younger people is an extremely good idea, if they are around high-risk people. Do it for yourself: healthy young people die from covid, even though the numbers are lower; and they get damaged too, which could be life-long (I don't think we know that yet). Do it for your high-risk roommate! That will keep you BOTH safe!
Do you want me to send you links to a couple safety studies? Ivermectin is ridiculously safe.
[-] Hovercraft_Time | 2 points
WELL SAID
[-] wallahmaybee | 3 points
That's fair enough, I'm just urging caution about mass use of a drug for months on end.
[-] Adorable-Relative-94 | 2 points
True in Mexico it’s advised to do a detox twice a year not so often because then super bugs can form because of constant exposure so they build resistance over time.
[-] Alexanderandjeff | 1 points
Another point about resistance of parasites to the Ivermectin class of drugs.... Our immune system does what it can to keep those critters in check...When it can't African River Blindness can ensue in many ..By aiding the body and giving it Ivermectin might cause resistance at some point for some parasites but it doesnt diminish the bodies immune system to keep it in check the best way it can .. My understanding is we all harbor parasites...The worst that would happen is that the immune system can be given a rest while Ivermectin kills not only parasites like many herbs do, but will inactivate this version of Covid . Covid 19 would simply disappear in time . We can always develop new vaccines quickly as we have learned to do with this version of Corona virus ....We just need a bridge to get us to a point where everyone is vaccinated. .Like smallpox ...Thats only found in secure biological vaults....But even for that ..that virus can be made from a lab now...Vaccines are the the answer. They sometimes dont work like one for HIV ...Ivermectin for now gets us to a point where we could live to see a vaccination with very little downside. Could save 100,000s of lives One other point....Ivermectin has successfully treated scabies as well and so far Ivermectin seems to work very well for a very long time ...Its given to horses, sheep ,dogs for heartwarm ....Billion of doses and still to this day after almost 40 years later is still effective...Where's is all this parasitic resistance. occurring? Bacteria are different... They actually share information between each other and build resistance because of their huge numbers...Not sure if parasites can do the same ....Once dead there is no sharing...All of them die Ivermectin seems to perform like Silver or Clorine Dioxide or Hydrogen Peroxide..Anerobic microbes which are the pathogens that do harm to us cannot build a resistance to these inorganic molecules
[-] wallahmaybee | 2 points
Where is all this parasitic resistance occurring?
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/111060/Drench-resistance-and-sheep-worm-control.pdf
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=18408792
It's widespread and causing ever more problems. The fastest way to create resistance in parasites in farming is under dosing which selects for survival of resistant parasites.
I get your point about ivm getting us to a vaccine and I am certainly not saying we shouldn't use it at all as I have stated previously.
[-] Murky-Lengthiness | 1 points
Worms are people too!
[-] stereomatch | 1 points
I don't know how much of a threat of this is seen by the WHO - since they were considering using Ivermectin on a mass scale in some areas of Africa where malaria is not going away. Their idea is that if a whole village is taking Ivermectin then when a mosquito bites a person that mosquito will die and will not be able to transmit from one person to the next.
Although that mass administration would have been limited to some areas and not the whole world.
[-] wallahmaybee | 1 points
That sounds like that could work. Local short term mass administration to hit hard and early. That's quite different from whole population prophylaxis every week or fortnight for months on end.
[-] giddyrobin | 0 points
That's an interesting point.
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 2 points | Dec 31 2020 23:59:22
I have said this before on this sub to be cautious of how much is used. Resistances, unknown long term effects, and increased waste water levels of the drug affecting wildlife, to name a few concerns.
Many people here do not need to take prophylaxis regularly. We can take comfort in the strong data that when symptoms (or exposure) do occur we can treat immediately and resolve with pretty much guaranteed success. Each to exercise their own judgement according to their situation but let's not go too far in taking this drug.
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