FLCCC Prophylaxis Dosing Change

[-] Wavesail | 45 points | Dec 28 2020 10:33:47

Folks, Pierre Kory of the FLCCC here - I just wanted to weigh in and apologize for the changing dose frequencies on our prophylaxis protocols. We have always maintained that our protocols were meant to evolve with emerging data and experience, and the I-MASK prophylaxis protocol has been an example of that, as the data supported first one approach, then another, and now, after reviewing all prophylaxis protocols, doing a deep dive in old literature that could apply to current (animal tissue studies etc), and discussing with some ivermectin experts, we now are very confident we have "gotten it right", in terms of efficacy, safety, and resource use. So, basically, after the loading doses, if you take a dose every 2 weeks... you will be protected from contracting COVID. Hope this helps and we apologize for the confusion!! Thanks- Pierre.

P.S Just saw some more comments - yes, we changed after some more prophylaxis studies came out, one with only 12mg/month that reduced infections from 73% of non-prophylaxed group to 6.9% in prophylaxed group - suggesting that monthly was .. "near perfect". We then spoke with a group that had been prophylaxing every two weeks for some months, but when they went to monthly intervals, two of their group got sick - thus, that was part of our final decision to recommend every 2 weeks. Also, keep in mind resource use - not enough pills right now for everyone weekly, and once we had enough clinical data and tissue/pharmacokinetic data to support that every two weeks was sufficient, we went to that. Finally - note also there is no precedent for weekly prophylaxis with ivermectin (aside from Carvallo's study, which was for 10 weeks only.. then followed by a 4 month drug holiday.) We think a simple every two weeks is best over prolonged periods of time. Again, hope this helps... and, although highly unlikely, always check back to our protocols for updates/changes - i.e. MATH+ hospital protocol recently had some changes as well based on recent clinical data

[-] passfailboat | 10 points | Dec 28 2020 12:15:22

Thank you for the clarification. And if you don't hear it enough, thank you so much for all the work you and your colleagues have done and continue to do. It sucks to go against the current, but you are saving lives. Thank you.

[-] Haitchpeasauce | 6 points | Dec 28 2020 12:35:29

Dr Kory thank you for updating us and it's an honour to have you on this sub.

Did you see Dr Andrew Hill's interview? Was his meta-analysis done in consultation with you or independently? He says he consults with the WHO, I hope he guides them to making a recommendation in favour of Ivermectin for COVID-19 soon.

Thank you for testifying in front of the Senate hearing. You and the FLCCC are being heard. Please keep up the good fight to save lives and end the pandemic.

[-] DreadPyriteRoberts | 3 points | Dec 28 2020 18:05:38

Dr Kory thank you for updating us and it's an honour to have you on this sub.

Repeated for emphasis, with the spelling corrected:

Dr Kory thank you for updating us and it's an honor to have you on this sub.

!Just teasing, Aitch!!<

[-] furimoxan | 3 points | Dec 28 2020 13:59:04

Do you think people should stop taking ivermectin before getting the vaccine? Also, is ivm safe for old people (80) with heart failure? Thank you for your work!

[-] Haitchpeasauce | 3 points | Dec 28 2020 23:45:51

I have heard of people in their 90s receiving ivermectin for scabies. This isn't medical advice, be in consultation with a doctor.

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 10:51:51

/u/furimoxan I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb when saying that /u/Haitchpeasauce knows what he's talking about.

He is (in my bowdlerized Spanish) muy smarto.

[-] Catcity13 | 3 points | Dec 28 2020 20:23:59

Dr. Kory, thank you! Truly an honour to see you here in this sub. You are an inspiration.

[-] thecarrotfund | 2 points | Dec 28 2020 16:57:52

Thank you for the videos, the studies, the research, the work you have done! Is there anything Redditors can specifically do to help the cause?

[-] akaariai | 2 points | Dec 28 2020 21:21:53

I've been wondering about this for a while - what's the evidence prophylactic usage prevents covid versus making it asymptomatic?

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points | Dec 28 2020 23:02:06

Not that my opinion is important (it really isn't), but I pushed back against dosing EOW (every other week) on twitter, in a tweet linking to Dr. Kory's comment:

He says more about why he believes every other week (EOW) is sufficient and suggests that it may be SAFER than weekly dosing.

AFAIK no data supports EOW. Dr. Aguirre says weekly protects 100%. Argentina dosed weekly, got 100%.

I want to see the "clinical data and tissue/pharmacokinetic data to support that every two weeks was sufficient" before I buy into EOW.

From Dr. Kory's comment:

we changed after some more prophylaxis studies came out, one with only 12mg/month that reduced infections from 73% of non-prophylaxed group to 6.9% in prophylaxed group - suggesting that monthly was .. "near perfect".

This is the Dhaka Bangladesh study., which someone (modesty forbids me) emailed to Dr. Marik. My comment on that study in its /r/ivermectin discussion:

I think this study shows that weekly doses are better than monthly.

Unfortunately, the Dhaka study and AFAIK no other study brings data to bear on the EOW idea. That dosing schedule has never been tried IIRC.

There is a plausible reason why weekly dosing could be harmful. The MAIN theory about ivermectin's mechanism against covid19 is it blocks the imp alpha/beta1 transport mechanism, so SAR-CoV-19 can't inject proteins into the cell nucleus that disable the cell's immune response. What are the health implications of that import mechanism being blocked over the long term? Is must be used to do good things, right?

I don't know what the health implications are. I can see how dosing EOW would probably free up the imp alpha/beta1 mechanism more than weekly doses. HOWEVER, that also makes the person more at risk of catching covid. IMO. It's a trade-off between a known sometimes-deadly disease (covid19) and an unknown side-effect from mucking with the import mechanism.

N=1 is lousy science, but I've been dosing twice a week since May and feel fine. 788 health care workers in the Argentina trial took ivermectin weekly for 3 months and didn't experience significant side-effects. They would have noticed, right? Dr. Kory says they then took a 4 month break from the regimen, which mystifies me -- why would those HCWs give up 100% effective protection when 58% of their unprotected colleagues caught covid -- but I'm sure Dr. Kory is telling what happened accurately. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[-] Haitchpeasauce | 2 points | Dec 28 2020 23:54:02

I think the answer of dosage is a balance of real life considerations. Weekly makes the most sense for highly exposed people, fortnightly for people at risk with comorbidity, monthly for low risk peace of mind. If symptoms appear, immediately switch to daily dosing until recovery.

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points | Dec 29 2020 00:01:21

That sounds totally reasonable.

But we know what the downside is from taking ivermectin too infrequently. What's the downside from taking it too often?

[-] rondi7 | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 00:52:17

Thanks for all you do Dr Kory.

When is best time to take Ivermectin relative to a meal? FLCC say take it on an empty stomach. Empty stomach is the default for parasites.

At least 1 other protocol says "After a fatty meal", no time specified. The theory is it gets absorbed better. Perhaps that means more of it?

[-] pezo1919 | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 12:47:38

We (some of IVERMECTIN MD TEAM group on Facebook) also tried to look up old animal tissue studies to find out possible safety issues. At this point some in this group are still not confident regarding to long term prophylactic use of ivermectin. 3 questions:

What studies / calculations made you believe every 2 weeks is safe for long term prophylaxis?
What are your groups experience with ivermectin prophylaxis?
Do you plan to make a study on long term prophylaxis? (to reassure long term users and make it a valid option for authorities)

[-] massimaux | 1 points | Dec 28 2020 11:44:44

Thank you so much, this is very helpful!

[-] DesinasIneptire | 1 points | Dec 28 2020 11:48:52

Hello, Dr. Kory what about an already started prophylaxis? E.g. 1st dose taken

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points | Dec 29 2020 10:54:16

Do day 3, then every other week.

Bear in mind that it's guesswork. The research doesn't exist. Dr. Kory is a very smart MD but he's limited to the data available from the trials. Since the science is indeterminant, just go with it.

[-] akohlsmith | 1 points | Dec 28 2020 17:31:05

So it sounds like the new recommendation is 0.2mg/kg on day 1 and 3, then 0.2mg/kg once every 14 days on a continuous basis. Is that correct?

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 3 points | Dec 29 2020 10:54:50

Yes.

[-] DreadPyriteRoberts | 1 points | Dec 28 2020 18:04:14

then followed by a 4 month drug holiday.

TIL for me!

Dr. Kory, I think that you and Dr. Marik and Dr. Varon really made the point that there's no downside risk during the FLCCC press conference.

What is the downside risk of dosing weekly?

[-] rondi7 | 3 points | Dec 29 2020 00:39:09

I don't think the "medical" conditions are known. BUT as Dr Kory mentioned--the pills are getting scarce and you might run out. I know a Dr who stopped treating Covid19 because he could not get pharmacies to fill his scripts. I do not know why--but perhaps they can't get pills. Do remember--Ivermectin has been prescribed on for parasites, given 1 time to kill them--not continuously, so the production reflects this.

[-] DreadPyriteRoberts | 1 points | Dec 29 2020 05:25:19

the pills are getting scarce and you might run out.

Is that actually true? I have no reason to think it IS or IS NOT true. Given the alternatives (esp. horse paste) it seems like an insufficient reason to put people at risk, if in fact every other week is not often enough.

[-] Signal-Sign-5778 | 3 points | Dec 29 2020 01:13:23

The Dr. didn’t say take a 4 month holiday after bi-weekly dosing. He said in the Carvallo study they dosed weekly for ten weeks and then took the holiday. The protocol has changed to day one dose, day three dose and then every 14 days. If anyone disagrees, please chime in.

[-] roonie1 | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 01:43:52

That's what I am hearing. I have seen the 4 month holiday before, but did not hear that now.

[-] Signal-Sign-5778 | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 01:47:23

See the Dr.'s response above. It is literally in the comment. He explains where the 4 months holiday came from and also says he doesn't understand why.

[-] DreadPyriteRoberts | 1 points | Dec 29 2020 04:52:14

Finally - note also there is no precedent for weekly prophylaxis with ivermectin (aside from Carvallo's study, which was for 10 weeks only.. then followed by a 4 month drug holiday.)

I didn't see a statement about Dr. Kory's not understanding anything. Please explain. I frequently miss things.

Squirrel!!

[-] Signal-Sign-5778 | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 14:31:34

I apologize. In a separate document from the Dr., He stated that the folks in the Carvallo study took a 4 month holiday from the regimen but there was no explanation for the holiday provided by Carvallo. It was not that he didn't understand something, it was that he wasn't clear why it was done that way. I will try find the source.

[-] DreadPyriteRoberts | 1 points | Dec 31 2020 00:36:35

I will try find the source.

Thanks!

No need for an apology! I demand that you take it back. Or I'll meet you at dawn with my seconds!

[-] Signal-Sign-5778 | 2 points | Dec 31 2020 02:55:23

I'm all for letting the seconds fight it out. I bruise too easily. While they fight we can go grab a scone and some horse paste!

[-] DreadPyriteRoberts | 1 points | Dec 31 2020 03:04:54

LOL!

Let's get apple scones, so they match!

[-] Signal-Sign-5778 | 2 points | Dec 31 2020 03:05:58

Strawberry jam and sour apple go together like peas and carrots.

[-] DreadPyriteRoberts | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 04:49:33

The Dr. didn’t say take a 4 month holiday after bi-weekly dosing.

I didn't read it as saying Dr. Kory did say that; I saw it as the initiative of Dr. Carvallo and the 788 health care workers -- NOT a recommendation by Dr. Kory / FLCCC.

I find it hard to believe. If you were aware of the fact that 58% of the HCWs who did NOT take ivermectin and do the 4 times a day carrageenan sprays caught covid, while 0% (NONE ZERO BUPKIS) of those who followed the protocol caught the virus? -- would YOU quit the protocol? I sure as heck wouldn't.

[-] Signal-Sign-5778 | 2 points | Dec 29 2020 14:32:09

Correct.

[-] Polkasid | 1 points | Dec 30 2020 05:08:34

How long does one take the prophylaxis for preventative...

[-] PersonalityFormer947 | 1 points | Jan 02 2021 19:33:39

Dr. It would be nice if you post updates and rationale to the FLCCC Tweeter account. This isn't there.