TrumpLyftAlles | 13 points
Quadruple Therapy with Ivermectin is effective in treating COVID-19 (India 2020-09-14)[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
LOL: Someone has done Borody and his "triple theraphy" one better. No actual data about efficacy here, unfortunately. The article refers to the Egypt prophylaxis study but gets the details wrong.
Elaborating on the effective methods being followed for treating COVID-19 across the globe, Shashikanth Manikappa, a specialist cardiac anaesthetist working at Monash Health in Melbourne, Australia, has strongly advised what he termed Quadruple Therapy involving four medicines — Ivermectin, Doxycycline, Zinc and Vitamin D3 — as a preventive as well as treating method.
They didn't use zinc in the Bangladesh studies of ivermectin + doxycycline. Zinc makes sense, since DOXY is a zinc ionophore. I don't know how much zinc helps, if at all. The HCQ crowd thinks it's critical. Dr. Aquirre recommends zinc in his protocol.
Addressing a media conference in Kalaburagi on Monday, the senior doctor said that the use of Ivermectin would be more effective than that of Hydroxychloroquine which was widely being used worldwide, right from the outbreak of the pandemic.
I guess he read the Bangladesh study (IVM + DOXY in blue, HCQ + AZT in red).
Referring to a pre-official release of a randomised controlled trial using Ivermectin in three doses in primary contacts of COVID-19, Dr. Manikappa said that 93 % of primary contacts who received Ivermectin did not develop any symptoms and 58 % of primary contacts who did not receive Ivermectin did progress to have symptoms of the pandemic.
This is the Egypt prophylaxis trial. Household members only got 2 doses of ivermectin, on days 1 and 3.
“Quadruple Therapy includes Ivermectin 12 mg one dose, Doxycycline 100 mg once a day for four days, Zinc 50 mg once a day for four days and Vitamin D3 once a week. Ivermectin, Doxycycline and Zinc are to be repeated every 14 days and Vitamin D3 every week with blood levels monitored. The synergistic effect of these medicine acts to prevent viral multiplication and also stop the virus from entering human cells. Thomas Borody, an Australian gastroenterologist who is known for curing peptic ulcers with triple antibiotic therapy, has revealed that one block in South America that received Ivermectin combination prophylaxis did not contract coronavirus infection while others did,” he said.
Why wait until day 14 to give a second dose of ivermectin, etc?
Vitamin D once a week? IMO that doesn't make sense. A TIL for me is that it takes a long time to build up D levels in the blood, like weeks or months. Even if they're doing a megadose, most of it will get peed out.
Borody must be referring to the Argentina prophylaxis study.
On the side effects, Dr. Manikappa said that Ivermectin was being used in 3.7 billion people for intestinal parasites and was found to be safe. “These are not new medicine. They are already in use for treating different ailments and are found to be safe. They can be prescribed by any doctor to control the pandemic,” he said.
3.7 billion is low. I wish I could get an actual number!
Asked about the statutory guidelines for the use of these medicine, Dr. Manikappa said that the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) had, though late, come up with new guidelines recommending Ivermectin.
I doubt it. TrialSiteNews' 2020-09-11 article:
District Kannada Vaidya Sahitya Parishat president S.S. Gubb and joint secretary Shashishekhar Reddy were present.
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 5 points
Zinc's action within the cell is that it binds with the RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) enzyme which RNA viruses (not just SARS-CoV-2) uses for replication, blocking its action. Since zinc has a positive charge it cannot pass the cell's phospholipid membrane into the cytoplasm without an ionophore. This makes any ionophore useful, however the interest around HCQ is for its additional functions. I read people saying IVM acts as an ionophore but haven't chased up to verify this statement.
D3 is taken up by adipose tissue where it is then released for the liver and then kidneys to convert through to its active form. This is why overweight and obese people tend to be D deficient and also why they require a higher dose to achieve adequate serum levels. Vitamin D3 has a long half life in the body, so even a single large dose can be used and the body eventually achieves correct serum levels. In that article the dosage of D3 is not mentioned, but they monitored each patient's blood levels so presumably dosed accordingly.
Although it takes a week for D3 to be fully converted into its active form, it would still be having an effect almost immediately. At this point knowing vitamin D's function in the body, it shouldn't be considered part of a therapy but part of standard care. Most people are vitamin D deficient. For instance, D is used for cell autophagy - if a cell is infected with a virus it can kill itself and halt replication. SARS-CoV-2 as we know blocks autophagy, and IVM binds the viral proteins that cause this. Having adequate vitamin D is working towards the same ends as IVM. Vitamin D has multiple benefits, it's even more incredible than Ivermectin.
The point with all these therapies is we must look at the whole of the virus' effects and be hostile and aggressive across the board, give our body the best chance of successfully defending against infection and severe symptoms.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points
Thanks for the excellent informative post. I grok zinc now. :)
I read people saying IVM acts as an ionophore but haven't chased up to verify this statement.
I looked into this a few weeks back. The only relevant article I could find proposed that it may be possible for two ivermectin molecules to connect end-to-end, creating something that could hold zinc or something else. My reading: not likely.
Although it takes a week for D3 to be fully converted into its active form, it would still be having an effect almost immediately.
Does that mean the inactive form is somehow active? Or does the "almost" account for the fact that at least a little will convert to the active form quickly?
SARS-CoV-2 as we know blocks autophagy, and IVM binds the viral proteins that cause this.
Ivermectin prevents covid-19 from preventing autophagy: do I understand you correctly? I'm unfamiliar with this. A new mechanism! Can you please provide a link about this?
The point with all these therapies is we must look at the whole of the virus' effects and be hostile and aggressive across the board, give our body the best chance of successfully defending against infection and severe symptoms.
What else are you interested in, besides ivermectin?
Thanks again for the post!
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 5 points
I'm saying that after receiving a D3 dose, levels of active form will be increasing slowly - better late than never. A higher dose also helps overcome effect of fat tissue absorption. I hear of doctors giving as high as 100,000-200,000 IU in a single dose without harm, this wouldn't be common but shows the how tolerable it is.
As we know SARS-CoV-2 sequesters the importin alpha/beta heterodimer delivering a protein payload into the nucleus that disrupts interferon signalling and the JAK-STAT pathway, one function is cell death. Basically SARS-CoV-2 is stopping a cell from killing itself so it can continue to hijack the cell machinery to replicate. Vitamin D in the cell produces more of the enzyme BECLIN 1 required for cell death, making it harder for the virus to block all of them.
I'm learning a lot of this from Dr Been lectures on YouTube which I highly recommend you check out, and is the starting point for my personal studies. He covers many topics and therapies, keeps it factual, shares his sources.
With regards to "across the board", it's about protecting our bodies in every way. This includes masks, distancing, good nutrition, exercise, sunlight, sleep and managing stress makes strong immune function and we should take it seriously.
In terms of supporting immune function, we should be looking at:
For other therapies there's a lot of exciting stuff:
There are articles covering all of these but I'm just listing the ones that interest me the most. The take home here is lots of these things can be bought off the shelf at the chemist. The more exotic Aviptadil and Leronlimab are reserved for severe cases, and IVM and HCQ are controversial, but there's plenty available to protect us right now. Treat early, save lives.
EDIT: Disclaimer: I don't have a background in medical science or biology, so I could be wrong about everything written above. I'm open to correction on any point.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Another great reply!
I hear of doctors giving as high as 100,000-200,000 IU in a single dose without harm, this wouldn't be common but shows the how tolerable it is.
Wow, I had no idea!
I'm taking all the supplements you mentioned, except for "Reduce Stress". Couldn't find that on Amazon. Joking.
I looked briefly into bromhexine but AFAIK it's not sold in the US. I can buy the horse paste version of ivermectin.
Apparently Aviptadil isn't sold in the US either. :(
Leronlimab (Pro 140) seems premature; they just applied for an emergency use authorization. No 20+ years of safety experience with billion(s) of users.
[-] wallahmaybee | 2 points
Can you not buy Robitussin Chesty Forte in the US?
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Nope, only sold in Oz and NZ.
It contains Guaifenesin. Is that the same thing as Bromhexine?
[-] wallahmaybee | 2 points
I don't think so, this states 2 active ingredients, bromhexine and guaifenesin. https://www.pharmacydirect.co.nz/Robitussin-Chesty-Cough-Forte-200ml.html I thought you had it all over the US, I remember a skit about Robitussin in Everybody Hates Chris (Chris Rock's comedy series) which made a big deal of it being the go to medicine for every child ailment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgDY6JHiPns
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Oh, there's a ton of Robitussin for sale, just not with bromhexine. Not FDA approved (grrrrr).
Thanks for going to the trouble of finding that link about the Robitussin!
I'm too hungry to watch it right now, but thanks for the Chris Rock link too.
[-] wallahmaybee | 2 points
Better get me some before the same happens here... All the effective medications are getting banned little by little because of people who have abused them. We no longer have any pseudoephedrin cold medicines, which were prescription only anyway, because the OTC pharmacy only ban made the local market so small the manufacturer has stopped supplying it entirely. Thanks for researching all these trials on ivermectin. It will probably be banned too...
Most of my general knowledge comes from either classic sci-fi or classic comedy ;)
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points
Most of my general knowledge comes from either classic sci-fi or classic comedy ;)
LOL me too. Larry Niven is my only physics professor. Classic comedy? Not sure I'm well-versed. I did recognize Simon Jones' voice reading an audiobook because of the 1981 Hitch-Hikers.
[-] wallahmaybee | 2 points
PK Dick helped me make sense of the current crisis.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
My son loves PK. Somehow I missed him during my big SF phase. I tried "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" and got mad because it wasn't BladeRunner, put it down. Dumb, right?
I don't read very much anymore. To much of THIS. LOL
[-] wallahmaybee | 1 points
I strongly recommend The Penultimate Truth at the moment. And A Scanner Darkly and Valis anytime although they're not really sci-fi. PKD was underrated as a comic writer.
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 1 points
Bromhexine not being available in the States is a huge surprise to me. We get it off the shelf in Australia. Its effectiveness is being explored, some studies say that coronavirus can bind and merge with a cell without TMPRSS2.
Yeah Aviptadil and Leronlimab are for hospital only, the latter is in trials.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 0 points
We get it off the shelf in Australia.
Gee, if only I had an internet friend who could ship me some! :)
Just kidding.
No doubt I could order it from India. Hmm: Maybe I'll look into Bromhexine further, might be worth some India shopping.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
I wrote up my analysis of the under-powered Bromhexine study here.
My tentative conclusion based on reading the two RCTs: Bromhexine seems to offer some of the advantages of ivermectin, perhaps at a comparable level.
How is Bromhexine 's safety record?
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 2 points
Schedule 2 Pharmacy Medicine, no prescription required but there are some safety precautions like with any drug.
The virus acts on multiple systems in our body, it's sensible to look at all therapies that protect every aspect until a vaccine is found and it is proven to be safe. We can all benefit from adequate vitamin D: it downregulates the Renin Angiotensin System and therefore the amount of ACE2 present on cells, strengthens epithelial cell connections, modulates correct inflammatory responses, the list goes on.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points
Damn, you make me want to have some. Do you think it may provide prophylaxis? I'm mostly interested in avoiding covid-19; being old, fat, and having 5 other risk factors, I really want to avoid catching the virus. I'll go straight to the hospital if I get sick, so if it's not prophylactic there's no point in having a supply on hand (unless I sneak it into the hospital, I guess).
As you might imagine, I am very happy about the two recent trials showing prophylaxis with ivermectin.
When I was looking into purchasing ivermectin from India, I ended up passing because shipping took a long time, like 3 months. Maybe it's better now.
[-] Haitchpeasauce | 4 points
I don't think it provides prophylaxis but it improves the disease trajectory and helps resist developing symptoms; if you do become sick your chance of survival go up and the risk of long haul symptoms diminish. Consult your doctor and get your blood analysed, especially if you have comorbidities such as overweight and older.
I eagerly await more trial results about Ivermectin prophylaxis and treatment at virological and immunological phases of COVID-19.
Get some horse paste. Cheap and OTC. I use it as prophylactic. I can't guarantee if Ivermectin works, but I have been around several folks who have subsequently tested positive and I'm fine. No side effects whatsoever. I use the dosage recommended in Uttar Pradesh health care workers outlined in this article:
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Meanwhile, those who come in contact with Covid patients have been advised to take 12 mg dose of the drug on the first and the seventh days. The health workers need to take the drug on the first day, seventh day and the thirtieth day in a month.
So you're taking 12mg? What's your schedule?
Get some horse paste. Cheap and OTC.
I've been taking a badly-measured 200-300mcg/kg of horse paste twice a week since about April. I'm thinking of cutting back to weekly. The only side-effect I've noticed is total relief from decades-long itching wherever I have hair, that 3 dermotologists failed to fix over the decades. Also my perpetually inflamed eyelids are no longer inflamed. Apparently I had mites.
Out of fear that the FDA will order retailers to require a veterinarian's prescription, I've got about a year's supply in the fridge. ;)
It’s badly measured, like yourself. I draw 10 lines on the syringe which should equal 11.3 mg if I dispense perfectly. So I’m not taking EXACTLy 12 mg, but pretty close. If I used your dosage for my weight, would be closer to 25mg. About double what I’m taking. No clue what’s the correct answer, just figured if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for me. And I like the idea of keeping dosage low as a prophylactic. An ounce of prevention is a pound of cure.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
And I like the idea of keeping dosage low as a prophylactic
What's the advantage? I'm a fanboy so maybe I'm delusional -- but ivermectin has an unassailable safety record. What constitutes an overdose has not been established: no one has ever given subjects enough to cause problems. 10 times the usual 200mcg/kg is safe.
A theoretical disadvantage: You're exposed to a heavy dose of coronavirus and it's been so long since you took ivermectin that it provides no protection and you catch the virus.
Also unknown is how long prophylaxis lasts. The Argentina health workers took 15mg weekly.
1) I don’t want to be the one establishing how much will result in an overdose :)
2). I have a general disposition of not taking meds unless necessary. Prior to Covid I take a daily mutivitamin, that’s it (45 yrs old) and I’d like to keep it that way.
3) I don’t ‘think’ taking a higher dosage would hurt, but also not sure it will help. seatbelts and prophylactics are exponentionally more effective if applied before the accident (exposure)
4) I have no previous first order experience with this drug - only what I’ve read on the internet. Proceed w caution. See point 1 again.
5) If I get symptoms I can up the dosage to treatment level (18mg day one day three) and I have doxicyclene on hand to immediately start the cycle
PS - post covid I also take one tablet of zinc w quartecin (spelling?) weekly. With cool weather and shorter days (less natural vitamin d) I’m starting with a weekly vitamin d3 tablet.
That’s my basic reasoning
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Excellent reasoning!
How did you get your hands on doxy? I'd love to get some.
I don’t want to be the one establishing how much will result in an overdose :)
If you ate an entire tube of horse paste, that's 113.4 mg, which is 1250mcg/kg for a 200 pound person. That's 62.5% of what's been found safe.
Not arguing, just think that's a fun fact.
See you around the sub! :)
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
Just a correction - if you are referring by the day 1 and day 3 ivermectin trial to the recent one, then that was the ~~Iraq study (not Egypt)~~ - correction: you are right it is the Egypt Zagazig Univ study which I was incorrectly calling the Iraq study (which was smaller/less statistically significant and came out at about the same time - which is why I was incorrectly calling the Zagazig Univ as the "Iraq" study when it is Egypt).
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points
Boy, my gray matter just gets worse. I need to refresh my brain about the Iraq study.
From the Egypt study:
Treatment: 2 doses 72 hours apart
Day 1: 0 hours
Day 2: 24
Day 3: 48
Day 4: 72
To me, "2 doses 72 hours apart" means Day 1 and Day 4 -- but an article (TrialSiteNews?) said Days 1 and 3, so that's what I went with.
What do you think? Is "Days 1 and 4" accurate?
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
I think I got the day 1 and day 3 from the ~~Iraq~~ Egypt (Zagazig Univ) study PDF.
Maybe TrialSite misunderstood that?
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points
I don't think it matters. My brain is revolting. In both senses of the word. (joke)
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
Just a correction - if you are referring by the day 1 and day 3 ivermectin trial to the recent one, then that was the ~~Iraq study (not Egypt)~~ - correction: you are right it is the Egypt Zagazig Univ study which I was incorrectly calling the Iraq study (which was smaller/less statistically significant and came out at about the same time - which is why I was incorrectly calling the Zagazig Univ as the "Iraq" study when it is Egypt).
I was wrong by calling it the Iraqi study - it is the Egypt study as you were correctly recalling - I had incorrectly classified it as Iraq and that is why I was again and again thinking it is Iraq - I have now gone back and corrected old posts and comments correcting it so it now says Egypt.
Sorry for subjecting you to what amounted to "gaslighting" - making you feel wrong [term gaslighting comes from the movie Gaslight).
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Sorry for subjecting you to what amounted to "gaslighting" - making you feel wrong [term gaslighting comes from the movie Gaslight).
Gaslighting is deliberately trying to make someone crazy by denying their reality. Rereading your comment, I see you know that already, since you mentioned the movie.
What you did is get confused. I do that every few minutes. No biggie. :)
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
Just a correction - if you are referring by the day 1 and day 3 ivermectin trial to the recent one, then that was the ~~Iraq study (not Egypt)~~ - correction: you are right it is the Egypt Zagazig Univ study which I was incorrectly calling the Iraq study (which was smaller/less statistically significant and came out at about the same time - which is why I was incorrectly calling the Zagazig Univ as the "Iraq" study when it is Egypt).
I was wrong by calling it the Iraqi study - it is the Egypt study as you were correctly recalling - I had incorrectly classified it as Iraq and that is why I was again and again thinking it is Iraq - I have now gone back and corrected old posts and comments correcting it so it now says Egypt.
Sorry for subjecting you to what amounted to "gaslighting" - making you feel wrong [term gaslighting comes from the movie Gaslight).
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Even though this one didn't work out, please help keep me accurate. I'll be genuinely happy to be corrected. :)
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
Again correcting myself here - I was calling the same trial Zagazig Univ Egypt (58pct vs 7.4pct) as the "Iraq" trial - I have corrected my comments etc now.
The actual Iraq study was much smaller and not statistically significant to compare the two arm.
But the Zagazig Egypt study is significant.
[-] stereomatch | 1 points
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ProvidedDocs/61/NCT04422561/Prot_SAP_000.pdf
This will be given as one dose at day one (diagnosis day), repeated once at day 3
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
?? Where the heck did I get 72 hours from?
Thanks!
[-] pezo1919 | 3 points | Sep 15 2020 02:24:17
Dr Aguirre, not Aquirre :)
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[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points | Sep 20 2020 04:57:48
LOL. I've made and (mostly) corrected that typo a lot. It's a weird transcription error, the two keys not being close together. Brains are strange.
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