Clinical testing underway in Calif. for Ivermectin (US 2020-08-26 OAN)

[-] thaw4188 | 3 points | Aug 31 2020 03:04:51

uh oan? shouldn't use oan as a source or link for anything

super fake news, ultra right wing, they just literally make stuff up

it's like fox on crack

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points | Aug 31 2020 20:03:52

If you scan the replies for a long post, you'll see that I am disputing OAN's "information". ;)

[-] i8wu | 2 points | Aug 31 2020 06:12:50

Good analysis. Thanks!

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points | Aug 31 2020 01:47:21

This link (which is mostly a video news story) is being tweeted a lot as supposed evidence that with ivermectin, we can end the lockdown NOW. I posted a response on that page, that I'm posting here in case OAN decides not to publish my comment.

Edit: OAN deleted my comment, didn't publish it. :(

My comment:

Prof. Borody:

Has no background in covid-19 or #ivermectin
Has not written one relevant paper
Has not done one relevant study
Has not treated ONE PERSON with his therapy
Has only weak proof that it works
His trial won't be done until -- Jan 2023 <--

You read that right: the trial described by this article isn't scheduled to be done until almost a year-and-a-half from now.

"What?", you exclaim, "he hasn't actually used his triple therapy on patients?"

Nope.

Cued for you:

https://youtu.be/F6A6RFDprIs?t=120

The interviewer asks how well his triple therapy has worked in Australian patients. Borody answers:

"No we have not started using this in Australian patients".

He then goes on misrepresent the facts, trying to give the impression that he's used the therapy elsewhere, which is FALSE:

"We've used it in the US, (mumbles), the access that we have is we had a 14-hospital trial in Bangladesh. We got a 100 out of a 100."

If Borody isn't using "we" to mean "we the world-wide community of scientists", then he's spewing BS.

There is only one ivermectin clinical report out of the US, the ICON trial:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.06.20124461v2

Borody isn't reported as an author because he wasn't involved in the research.

This is the Bangladesh study he's talking about, the clue being his "100 out of 100"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343305357_A_Case_Series_of_100_COVID-19_Positive_Patients_Treated_with_Combination_of_Ivermectin_and_Doxycycline

Again Borody is not listed as an author, because he wasn't involved in the study.

There is a trial being done by a 14-hospital organization in India, that isn't completed yet, which Borody apparently got confused with the Bangladesh study when he said "we had a 14-hospital trial in Bangladesh".

https://www.trialsitenews.com/kkr-backed-major-indian-health-care-provider-conducting-ivermectin-study-investigating-the-benefits-in-combating-covid-19/

It's as though Borody spent a few days reading ivermectin stories on TrialSiteNews before he "developed" his triple therapy -- "developed" meaning he took the ivermectin + doxycycline protocol used in the Bangladesh study and threw in zinc, coming up with a never-tested combination. He should have taken notes as he read TrialSiteNews and reviewed them before his TV interview.

Borody isn't cited in the ICON or Bangladesh studies because he wasn't involved and he has never written an ivermectin paper. He's never been involved in ANY ivermectin study, as evidenced by this search of scientific papers on PubMed:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=ivermectin+borody&sort=date&size=200

NO HITS.

Reiterating, each "We" in Borody's statement below, that you can listen to yourself at the cued point in the youtube video, is misleading, Borody insinuating that HE was doing the research:

"We've used it in the US, (mumbles), the access that we have is we had a 14-hospital trial in Bangladesh. We got a 100 out of a 100."

How long will it take to bring Borody's triple therapy to market?

Borody's cliinical trial isn't scheduled for completion until January 2023. This is the trial registration:

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04482686?term=ivermectin+borody&cond=covid-19&draw=2&rank=1

From that page:

Estimated Study Completion Date : January 2023

That date may be optimistic: it seems like clinical trials typically take longer than the researchers planned.

Let's optimistically say that Borody's triple therapy works and that's duly proven by his trial.

A US trial done by a well-known researcher should be persuasive to the FDA. Let's say the trial is done on time and the triple therapy is approved a quick 3 months later. That means it will be FDA approved in April 2023. That's 4 months shy of TWO YEARS FROM NOW. Presumably it will take a period of (3? 6? 9? 12?) months for the business that's doing the trial to line up manufacture and distribution. It could be the case that it's MORE than 2 years from now, before BorodyMectin(tm) is available for purchase in pharmacies.

Will BorodyMectin(tm) be relevant by the time that it's available to the public, perhaps two years from now?

By then, it's very likely that effective vaccines will have been taken by everyone who wants to. It's likely that other drugs and other therapies will be proven before Borody's trial is completed. Will Borody have to do another trial to see how BorodyMectin(tm) compares to drug XYZ, before they can market it effectively?

What will BorodyMectin(tm) cost?

The business that is doing Borody's trial is investing over a million dollars in the project. Surely it hopes to make a profit on its investment? What's the plan?

Ivermectin is off-patent and dirt cheap: it is manufactured in 7 places around the world (if memory serves) including India, where a dose costs 2 cents US. How can Borody's business make money off his triple therapy?

My guess is that he'll patent the triple therapy: ivermectin + doxycycline + zinc.

What will BorodyMectin(tm) cost? No one knows!

The three components might cost less than a dime/pill.

So what's your guess? $399/pill? $899/pill? It's well-known that drug companies set prices to maximize revenue; the cost of components doesn't matter. The price doubtless depends on whether the pandemic is under control, 2 years from now.

Borody is more of a salesman than scientist

When you watch Borody on youtube doing a TV interview, pay attention and you'll notice that he's selling something. Instead of giving the sober, couched statements that are typical for scientists, he's all over-confidant bluster: "100% cure" and "the virus is very to kill" and similar non-scientific phrases intended to convince the viewer that his untested therapy is the solution. That's not yet known and won't be until his trial is completed, 17 months from now. The fact that he's laying on a sales pitch should make you wary.

What's he selling? I think he's selling his patented (by then) BorodyMectin(tm) therapy for coronavirus. Could be wrong. Can't blame him: he looks like he's close to retirement age.

If it works, which is NOT yet proven, BorodyMectin(tm) has a good shot at being in time for covid-24. That would be the new strain of coronavirus that hits the world in 2024.

Good news: It's improbable that if covid-24 hits, the FDA will require another trial to see if BorodyMectin(tm) works against the latest variety of coronavirus. This could actually be a big win, if the virus has changed enough to render the existing vaccines ineffective -- and BorodyMectin(tm) works against the new strain. It well might.

I wish Prof. Borody luck. I think his triple therapy may well be effective. I wish he wouldn't misrepresent what's he's done with the triple therapy: nothing except read other peoples' research, add zinc to the Bangladesh protocol to "develop" his triple therapy, get a trial started, and sell it on TV. I wish he'd act more like a scientist instead of a salesman. I wish he could do the trial in fewer than 17 months. 4 should be feasible.

[-] jpdowlin | 2 points | Sep 02 2020 17:46:57

I work in academia. This is how it works. Some random person in some unknown institute makes some breakthrough. Some person at big (ivy-league) university "collaborates" with the previously unknown person on the breakthrough and claims credit. Sometimes, the famous person will just make a small change to the previous breakthrough and claim it (like Borody is doing). Sometimes, you can't just make small changes so you become a collaborator (cf https://qz.com/929794/has-lithium-battery-genius-john-goodenough-done-it-again-colleagues-are-skeptical/?utm_source=reddit.com - Goodman is big man, Braga is the inventor). This is the normal way in which science works.

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points | Sep 02 2020 18:08:48

Thanks for the link. I wonder if Goodenough had any role in the research. Looking at his wikipedia page, it appears that his lithium battery breakthrough was an enhancement that doubled battery-capacity that he came up with in 1980. All of the innovations in the "Professor at University of Texas" section (where he went in 1986) lists a number of papers where someone else was the lead author. Has Goodenough had an original research result since 1980 or has he just been piggy-backing on the research of others?

There's the observation that research breakthroughs are mostly done by age 30. It looks like Braga might fit that pattern.

I guess an implication of Goodenough's story is the US needs a Borody to adopt ivermectin and carry the torch.

The April 6/19 "Usefulness of Ivermectin..." paper was the only research result other than the Monash 48 hours study for a good while, maybe 6-8 weeks? I'm not sure, but I think between the initial April 6 paper and the April 19 edition, an author was added who is an extremely accomplished researcher at Harvard Med, with 500 (!) papers to his credit. (No doubt he had a lab full of grad students and post-docs helping him turn those out.) I wonder if the Harvard guy was added to give the paper more heft.

[-] propargyl | 1 points | Sep 02 2020 21:37:21

Borody is a clinician and Wagstaff is a biochemistry research scientist. It is important that a clinician states that a drug is safe for use in a diseased hospital patient.

[-] [deleted] | 1 points | Aug 31 2020 01:47:32

[removed]

[-] jetplane10-102 | 1 points | Sep 01 2020 11:32:47

Borody is not the only person using Ivermectin to treat and prevent covid.

The people arguing against using this treatment and others like HCQ are really annoying, it is like they don't want to save lives, pain & suffering.

They argue against it but have nothing to put up themselves as an answer to covid.

I think they got a screw loose.

[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points | Sep 01 2020 22:52:30

Hey, Jetplane10! Nice to have a visitor from twitter.

The people who frequent this sub are almost all ivermectin enthusiasts.

The people arguing against using this treatment

You'll find few people like that here.

My essay isn't against ivermectin, it's against Borody overselling ivermectin as though no more research is needed -- which he explicitly acknowledges by participation in his trial that's supposed to be done in January 2023.

Hang around, browse the sub. There's a lot to learn here and a number of people who know their stuff.

[-] crossemmert | 1 points | Sep 02 2020 17:29:55

interesting. I was commenting last week with someone from Australia, and they didn't know about Dr. Borody and ivermectin. I did wonder why he wasn't doing the study in Australia, and trying to help his country.