stereomatch | 1 points
Adam Gaertner starts funding stage for a 7 day randomized control trial of Ivermectin (Arizona - US, 2020-08-25)Adam Gaertner who has appeared on Dr Been:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ivermectin/comments/i1tlb8/_/ Dr Been interviews Adam Gaertner (private researcher) on ivermectin - helps reduce damaging effects of covid19 on interferon production, and reduces cytokine storm
And Dr Yo:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ivermectin/comments/i81wzl/_/ Dr Yo interviews Adam Gaertner - ivermectin, vitamin c
and has suggested that Ivermectin may be the solution, now is at the funding stage of a randomized control trial for Ivermectin:
https://twitter.com/veryvirology/status/1298121671757320192?s=20
We are approaching the point at which we will have what we need to at least begin preparing. I will be endeavoring to release a detailed trial budget very soon. Thank you for your support! $2272 and counting.
https://twitter.com/veryvirology/status/1297944155004403712?s=20
If you want it done right, you gotta do it yourself. I'm preparing a 7-day-max RCT to trial #ivermectin and Vitamin C for #COVID19. The only obstacle now is the funding to purchase 260kg of L-ascorbic acid and 8000 doses of ivermectin. Please support us: Trial Funding organized by Adam Gaertner
https://www.gofundme.com/f/trial-funding
$2,300 raised of $100,000 goal Adam Gaertner is organizing this fundraiser. Created August 16, 2020 This funding will be used for hiring persons and for expenses related to designing, carrying out, reporting and publishing the clinical trial. Adam Gaertner Organizer Sedona, AZ
https://twitter.com/veryvirology/status/1296154029857243136?s=20
I have left the GoFundMe page with very little detail due to concerns over censorship. This is an RCT of oral L-ascorbic acid at 55mg/kg/3h, 110mg/kg bolus, and ivermectin at 150mcg/kg. Proving such a simple process will be the END of this pandemic. Your help is appreciated!
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
Looking at Gaertner's twitter timeline, 8 days ago, I saw his tweet stating:
"The entire US population could be treated with $24 worth of IVM. It is extremely plentiful and cheap."
I messaged him, asking if he meant $24 million, asking him to show me his math.
His response was this
He really meant $24.
As a result of that exchange, I did this post which estimates the cost of giving every American a single dose at 200mcg/kg would cost $5.4 million at India's retail price, $127 million at the US retail price.
The wacky $24 is one thing; his refusal to show his math is another.
Not impressed.
I didn't see that many tweets from him during the brief time that I wasn't blocked, but it seems characteristic that he seldom (if ever) includes links to sources in his tweets. That might be unfair: it wasn't a big sample and I wasn't paying close attention to him.
Edit: I looked further of the conversation that I got the image above from. Gaertner said this, which makes his $24 slightly less asinine.
[-] stereomatch | 1 points
He may be right about the $24 - as that may be the manufacturing cost of the raw material.
You probably need about 1000 kg of ivermectin - which may have a manufacturing cost of that - he has mentioned that figure a few times.
But I have no way of knowing how correct it is.
Cursory search suggests it is $150-200 per kg - which would be about $150,000-200,000.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
He may be right about the $24 - as that may be the manufacturing cost of the raw material.
and
Cursory search suggests it is $150-200 per kg - which would be about $150,000-200,000.
If you divide $200,000 by 8,333 you get $24! Gaerter was right!
Just kidding.
Retail is a lot more logical than the raw material: people would be taking pills in bottles or other packaging. If Gaerter meant the raw material he should have said so. Even then he's be off 4-5-6 orders of magnitude.
You seem to like the guy. How come?
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
He seems to know what he is talking about - and he gets the nod from people who have a chance to vet him. Plus he talks from a contrarian novel viewpoint compared to the stodgy types.
Other than that I dont have any more info about him.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
He seems to know what he is talking about
Has he talked about things that you know about so you could confirm the accuracy of his statements?
If I cared I would try to get through a couple of his videos, but I don't.
If you will transcribe one or two, I'll give them a look. My opinion doesn't count for a hill of beans, though, so why bother?
[-] stereomatch | 2 points
I have listened to the Dr Been and Dr Yo videos and they are in synch with what he is saying - which is more than I could understand.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
No transcription then? :(
I'm old with shitty hearing and am ADHD and I can't get through the videos. Also, I really want citations. Talking heads saying things are just talking heads saying things. Who knows if it's bullshit? I don't suppose Gaertner's videos have citations?
Dr. Seheult (MedCram) is another story. Totally comprehensible! I think Dr. Seheult shows the title of every paper he discusses.
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 1 points
I just reailzed that Gaertner said this earlier in the message thread. I guess he was talking about raw material cost. Even so...
[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points | Aug 29 2020 07:58:57
As of now (2008-08-29), 13 days after setting up his goFundMe, Gaertner has raised a bit less than $3000 of his $100,000 goal.
I'm personally unimpressed with the little I've seen of Gaertner on twitter. IMO it's bizarre that he is asking for $$$ for a study for which this seems to be the entire specification:
This is an RCT of oral L-ascorbic acid at 55mg/kg/3h, 110mg/kg bolus, and ivermectin at 150mcg/kg.
What's a bolus? Why vitamin C? Why didn't he at least write a page or two justifying his choice of therapies?
I would ask him if he hadn't blocked me on twitter a few days ago, I think because I tweeted at him "Adam I didn't see your trial on ClinicalTrials. Did I miss it?"
IMO this trial would seem real if it had a ClinicalTrials entry.
IMO this isn't a good use of money.
Edit:
7:30 PM EST on 2020-09-02: $3,145 raised of $100,000 goal
6:50 PM EST on 2020-09-12: $3,435 raised of $100,000 goal
12:30 AM EST on 2020-09-17: Still $3,435
4:50 AM EST on 2020-09-21: no change
11:20 AM EST on 2020-09-29: $3,460
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[-] stereomatch | 2 points | Aug 29 2020 09:03:53
I have not vetted Adam Gaertner - I am going by the confidence Dr. Been and Dr. Yo (who collaborates with Dr. Mike Hansen also) had in Adam Gaertner to highlight him on their show.
Superficially Adam Gaertner may be somewhat idiosyncratic in the way he talks - but it could also be the traits of a very smart individual.
His overall vibe does seem to be someone who is smart and able to make leaps and connections between things. Along with that may be a lack of interest in converting everyone.
Perhaps the same occurred to him when you asked him about ClinicalTrials - i.e. he may have seen it as a bait that was to drag him into a discussion he did not need.
He has said somewhere - perhaps in his twitter comments - that he purposefully did not put too much info in the GoFundMe webpage, because it would only attract censorship.
So the purpose of the GoFundMe may be achieved or it may not be achieved by the way it is progressing.
But it does not detract from anyone else's efforts - so I don't see why Adam Gaertner's efforts need to be hindered. I would suggest let him try in his own way.
Regarding his twitter history - there does seem to be a pro-Trump element in it - which may be an original view, or may be a view he acquired given the hostility the other side may have afforded HCQ or alternative therapies.
I have mentioned before that anti-Trump folks using HCQ or other treatments as a weapon against Trump is a misguided strategy - one which could lead to an own goal. Just as Trump should not have politicized treatment strategies, similarly anti-Trump should avoid doing the same - the US is unique in how it has managed to inject politics into an emergency (sure Trump was the trigger, but the bait was readily taken up by others - which could backfire if alternative treatments turn out to have been right).
So Adam Gaertner may have some political leanings - but that should not be an impediment to his research.
Dr. Been and Dr. Yo are not pro-Trump from what I understand and they were sufficiently impressed to feature Adam Gaertner on their videos.
So my gut feeling is to let the guy do what he wants to do.
But I could be wrong.
EDIT: I have noticed that Adam Gaertner's twitter profile does seem to highlight ADE (Antibody Dependent Enhancement). And he has mentioned it in a few comments:
https://twitter.com/veryvirology
ADE is when after being infected once, on being infected again, the prognosis gets worse - something like that happens with Dengue where the second infection can be deadlier.
From my superficial reading of his twitter - my guess is he is alluding to a possibility that vaccination may have a negative - the possibility of ADE occurring i.e. exposure from vaccine making infection become deadlier.
I recall in my earlier reading on covid19, I was cognizant of ADE as a factor - but so far ADE has not been mentioned much in the context of covid19. Reinfections have not thrown up too many cases of ADE (I may be wrong).
So I don't know what Adam Gaertner's issue with ADE and covid19 vaccines may be - whether it is part of a traditional "anti-vaxxer" ideology - or whether it is a real risk. I haven't studied it enough to know.
But from his twitter it does seem that some retweets he has made are of posts by others where they are talking about the risk of getting a vaccine too early into circulation i.e. if a vaccine is brought into mass use before adequate testing (because of the pressing need to get society back on track).
Traditionally vaccines are examined closely for ADE and other such factors - which is why it takes years for a vaccine.
Perhaps this is what is of concern to these "anti-vaxxer" types.
Further complicating the discussion is the Moderna vaccine which is an RNA vaccine - which while elegant in concept for years is from what I understand the first RNA vaccine to be set for mass vaccination.
And there may be some critics of RNA vaccines who may have issue with that.
Perhaps their problem would be that since with covid19 and with vaccination we are dealing with problems which sometimes only become apparent after millions of people have been administered the treatment, it is hard to understand the secondary effects unless it is tried in a large trial first.
Fortunately Ivermectin and such do not have such issues - and the hope is that even without a vaccine (which may come a bit late) - we may be able to minimize the death rates from covid19 sufficiently so it becomes a relatively safe disease.
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[-] stereomatch | 2 points | Aug 29 2020 09:57:42
What's a bolus? Why vitamin C? Why didn't he at least write a page or two justifying his choice of therapies?
Bolus dose is when it is given in one dose or within short period of time:
https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/bolus-dose
Vitamin C if I recall is recommended for use with Quercetin.
And I vaguely recalling Adam Gaertner may have mentioned it for use with Ivermectin.
In any case, searching google for - ivermectin vitamin c - seems to throw up something like that ie vitamin c may reduce negative side effects of ivermectin:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30128972/ Effect of vitamin A and vitamin C on attenuation of ivermectin-induced toxicity in male Wistar rats
http://basjvet.org/files/110-124.pdf HISTOPATHOLOGICAL AND BIOCHEMICAL EFFECTS OF IVERMECTIN ON KIDNEY FUNCTIONS, LUNG AND THE AMELIORATIVE EFFECTS OF VITAMIN C IN RABBITS
Conclusion The repeated administration of ivermectin causes hazardous effects on kidney function and many of histopathological changes were demonstrated in kidney and lung structure. The administration of Vitamin C can acts as protective agent.
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[-] TrumpLyftAlles | 2 points | Sep 02 2020 23:25:40
I didn't see this post until just now, stereo. Thanks for doing that. Seems weak to me, given that I'm unaware of ivermectin screwing up kidneys and lungs, but maybe I just missed that.
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